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[info]shatterstripes

A nice cup of rabies

Rantings with occasional art.

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flags
passing, transition, bugs
[info]shatterstripes
July 9th, 2007
So I started thinking about pride flags. Specifically, the ones for the transgender community.

I have never seen one I liked... because all of them are about 'male plus female'. Various hybrids of the signs for Venus and Mars, and pastel pink and blue. The pastel, especially, bugs me - it becomes something about reinforcing the gender roles of 1950s America. "It's okay to pick your own role", these colors say, "as long as it's one of the two approved ones".

To make matters worse, 'pastel' always feels feminine to me; if I was a FtM, I'd want some much butcher colors!

With that in mind, and a joking suggestion of stealing the Trans Am logo, I doodled in Illustrator.



Not quite there in colors or execution, but I think it's a start on something very different. It's not about the male/female chasm; it's about the rebirth. Proud, bright colors for the fire; an empty white slate for the phoenix, breaking out of the greyness of their previous life. And something firey like a phoenix is a reminder to get out and do something now that you're no longer spending every minute maintaining the pretense of the gender you were born in.

Also it works hung vertically or horizontally, which is a plus.

Comments? Especially from those of you who're on the female-to-male path - does this speak to you more or less than existing designs?

edit: I made some variants.



Top to bottom: cool grey ground, rather than warm grey; two versions of 'well, we're all pretty queer, so why not swipe the six-color rainbow of the gay pride flag?'.
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( 46 comments — Leave a comment )

[info]growly

2007-07-09 08:09 pm (UTC)

This has nothing to do with anything, but were you at AC? I wanted to meet'cha.
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[info]kensan_oni

2007-07-09 08:12 pm (UTC)

Can't we have like Pastel Pink and Navy Blue then?

... ah, I suppose you're kinda right, though. The colors have bugged me about as much as the Rainbow Flag bugs me about homosexuality. There has to be a better way.

... although I don't think your flag is quite it yet.
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 09:05 pm (UTC)

I've just never felt like the faded pastels of most tranny pride flags speak to me. If you put all the various queer-subset pride flags together, they're all bold and loud - except for the t* pride ones, which are almost all these pink/blue/white affairs that whisper their message.

I'M GAY! say the rainbow flags. I LIKE BURLY MEN! the bear flags scream. I LOVE LEATHER! the leather flag hollers. I'm trans, all but one trans flag mutters.

This is a first stab at something that's as celebratory as all the other queer pride flags. It's a quick doodle looking for commentary, not a finished presentation by any means!
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[info]kensan_oni

2007-07-09 10:27 pm (UTC)

Well, I think subdued is the point. While every other community in the LGBT community is going "Look at us! We love X! Accept Us As We Are", the trans person is kinda "Please Accept us as we are, but don't think I'm not what I am". We ARE subdued by nature cause we don't WANT people to sit there and think of all the flaws and everything we feel. We want acceptance, but it's not quite at the same goals as the Gays and Lesbians.

I do think that a celebration flag is a good idea, and I know every TG wants a better one. But it seems to me being loud almost runs counter to the goals of being trans.

Maybe that's just my problem, though.

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[info]tracerj

2007-07-10 01:12 am (UTC)

We ARE subdued by nature cause we don't WANT people to sit there and think of all the flaws and everything we feel.

Not all of us.

I very much do want to say, "Look at us, we are proud to have hacked the hell out of our stifling gender cubbyholes, live it or live with it!" In fact, I have often said that. I'm looking for more than acceptance. I'm looking for curiosity, inquiry, understanding, change in others' attitudes.

Subdued is what I was when I hid at home for two years afraid that I'd look bad. I want those two years back, and putting one of these stickers on my car would be a good step toward that. (I'm leaning toward the cool grey field, but mostly because I've always loathed the rainbow as a symbol.)
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[info]mmsword

2007-07-09 08:26 pm (UTC)

I love the concept. The phoenix as a symbol is one of my utter favorites. I certainly do like it more then the other design. However, I think the design's a touch sparse. It could use one more element. Personally I'd suggest the alchemical symbol for Mercury, both giving a slight nod to the other symbols while using a wholy more appropiate one for the spirit here.
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 09:13 pm (UTC)

I was thinking about the Mercury symbol before the phoenix imagery jumped out; it bugs me a lot less than the various hybridizations of Venus and Mars people have made.

I'm not sure it'd work in this one; it feels unbalanced right now, but I feel the fix is to make more refined drawings of the concept than my five-minute scribbles, rather than to add more. The starker a flag, the better. (Brazil and Albany being notable exceptions.)

I probably need to just brainstorm for transformative symbols in general and see what shakes out.
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[info]mmsword

2007-07-09 09:17 pm (UTC)

Making the fire larger might soak up that expanse of greyspace.
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[info]ff00ff

2007-07-09 10:39 pm (UTC)

This makes me think. Recently Pluto was downgraded to the status of "dwarf planet" and two other dwarf planets were added to the solar system as well. Pluto was only discovered in 1930, so although it, and other outer solar system planets symbols look arcane and runic they're actually pretty recent. I wonder if anyone is, and who has the authority, to come up with two new symbols for the two new dwarf planets.
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[info]eselgeist

2007-07-09 08:29 pm (UTC)

if you're not above appropriating existing imagery, then
i'd suggest the Albanian flag or other
heraldic imagery.

the phoenix is a beautiful iconographic idea. and frankly i'd also suggest
adopting the imagery, rather than any specific version, trans-am,
national, or other generated design. isn't the idea one of
self-determination? how about each makes a personal phoenix? perhaps something cute, perhaps something fierce, perhaps both, etc. slick and
minimal or baroque or rustic, etc.

the idea of it is excellent, and i think your execution of it here,
particularly the tailfeather action, is all Peggy.
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 08:52 pm (UTC)

I was kinda thinking of the various stylized birds seen on existing nation's flags - and of the assorted Native American imagery, as well, given that the car with the big bird on the front by default is the Thunderbird.

I do like the concept of making one's own personal version! I feel like there's got to be something to propagate the meme with, though; a standard image for the lazy to easily grab and display...
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[info]postrodent

2007-07-09 08:37 pm (UTC)

I have no particular right to say anything about this, but I think you need to simplify it down a little, until it can be easily sprayed on a wall or ballpoint-chiseled into a desk surface. :)
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 09:14 pm (UTC)

Yeah, simplicity is good for flags. These are first-cut doodles...
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[info]paka

2007-07-09 08:40 pm (UTC)

I didn't know there were transgender flags before some discussion today and man, the extant things are uhhh-gleee! I definitely agree about the male-female symbol thing, it's just wrong.

I don't know if I actively like your alternative, but anything beats what's out there now.
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 08:55 pm (UTC)

I have some other ideas I may play with; this is just a first take on something that's more... I dunno. More about the alchemical fire aspect of gender change, than about 'there are boys and there are girls and I'm both/neither'.
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[info]paka

2007-07-09 08:58 pm (UTC)

Suggestion, both flames and pheonix as white silhouettes on rainbow flag, possibly overlapping slightly to ensure the viewer connects the two mentally?
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 09:18 pm (UTC)

Yeah, there definitely needs to be more continuity between bird and flame than in this doodle. I'd tried throwing the white bird and colored flame on the rainbow (see edited post), but not white flame...
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[info]athelind

2007-07-09 09:42 pm (UTC)

I love the phoenix imagery. It's a powerful icon, and one that communicates vast amounts of information on multiple levels. It gave my poor, banal, genderbland brain a flash of insight about transgendering that it never really got before: it's as much about the process as the product. It's not crossing the street: it's rejecting the street, and flying above it.

I think you're getting really close with this one. Tying the tailfeathers into the flames really emphasizes the message you verbalized. The Phoenix IS the Flame.
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 10:38 pm (UTC)

Yeah, that's pretty much the message I'm trying to get across. Existing trans pride flags are about the dichotomy between male and female (stereotypes), in my reading of their symbols. This one celebrates the will to remake.

There might be a hint of transhumanist thinking in this choice of message. Earlier today, after all, I was fantasizing about having modular genitals - different 'male' ones, different 'female' ones, varied ones that were both, neither, or Something Else.
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[info]athelind

2007-07-10 03:07 am (UTC)

I was thinking just that: it's as much a Transhuman flag as a Transgendered one. That may be why it clicked for me: I don't have a lot of gender issues, but oh my, do I understand the desire to remake one's body according to one's desires.
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[info]mmsword

2007-07-09 10:10 pm (UTC)

I think that really pulled it together nicely.
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[info]tracerj

2007-07-10 01:15 am (UTC)

Now, this one I could see, definitely. The white totally reads as fire, and the wings keep it all from reading as "dragon".
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[info]jonaswins

2007-07-09 11:16 pm (UTC)

What about something that actually uses alchemy symbols? Like, the symbols for one of the processes, or something. Gemini seems somehow appropriate, in an abstract sense. Though that might be too obscure.
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[info]jonaswins

2007-07-09 11:19 pm (UTC)

To clarify, this is what Gemini represents, aside from the whole 'duality' aspect.
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That looks very familiar :D

[info]perlandria

2007-07-09 08:42 pm (UTC)

On a scans well level, the bird is too disconnected to the flame?

Oh! Oh! If this gets around enough, does that mean fundamentalist christians will say Harry Potter not only teaches witchcraft, but trans?
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Re: That looks very familiar :D

[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 08:58 pm (UTC)

One phoenix image looks much like another. *grin* Especially when they use the device of composing diagonally to get the most possible motion out of a rectangular space.

My initial scribble had it going vertically on a wide canvas, and had it coming out of the flame; I ended up accidentally losing that as I recomposed. Being connected to the flame is definitely a symbolic layer worth playing with.
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[info]robocoon

2007-07-09 09:20 pm (UTC)

I love this. Like you said, FtMs definitely need something a little more butch... too much of the transgender world concentrates only on MtF culture. That said, I LOVE the phoenix, especially the first one. Rainbows are nice too though. :0
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 09:46 pm (UTC)

Yeah. The existing iconography of transsexuals is, I think, designed exclusively by MtFs trapped in a very binary gender mindset. It's all about the pink and the blue - and more about the pink, more often than not. It turned me off of associating with trans groups; it sure can't be helping to bring transwomen and transmen together.

I'm on the fence about the rainbow stripes. Stripes seem to be a given for the genre of 'queer pride flag' but making the imagery work against it is a pain!
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[info]pseudomanitou

2007-07-09 09:24 pm (UTC)

That... actually, is a really good design challenge. I don't know about a flag concept myself, I think you have a good start, but I'm now thinking hard about an icon concept.

I might put some time into this, though, I don't think I'll be doing more than tossing ideas up. Something about having an icon designed by someone outside of that identity just doesn't give it credibility.
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 09:56 pm (UTC)

Some part of my brain is thinking of this as a branding exercise! And a challenge, because flags are almost always designed by non-artists; how can I make something that doesn't feel overly slick?

By 'icon', do you mean something in the terrain of the Venus/Mars symbols used to represent female/male? The most elegant compromise I've seen out there, IMHO, is the use of Mercury. Though some feel that says 'specifically intersex' rather than 'in transition'. I've fiddled around with homebrew symbols in the same design domain as the planet symbols, but nothing's really worked.

Input is welcome; I'm listening to a lot of cisgendered voices here. And I'm trying to make this flag represent two very different, yet similar paths - the journey from male to female and the one from female to male. Trying to come up with something acceptable to someone who started as a girl and is becoming a man is, in some ways, presumptuous of me. In others not, since I'm explicitly making this about the change, not the result.
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[info]ff00ff

2007-07-09 10:48 pm (UTC)

The sign for mercury, to me, looks like a venus symbol with horns, like some chick would be wearing it on a t-shirt that says "Bitch" on it, and jeans that say "Juicy" on her ass.
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Yahr?

[info]athelind

2007-07-09 09:45 pm (UTC)

By the way, another friend of mine recently submitted an entry into a PIRATE flag contest... and when I initially read the first paragraph of this post, I read "transgendered pride flag" as "transgendered pirate flag". That added a whole 'nother layer of symbology, as I pictured that phoneix banner flying high from a mast.
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Re: Yahr?

[info]eriscontrol

2007-07-09 09:52 pm (UTC)

Without even misreading, I imagined such a flag flying on my own boat's mast, in fact.
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Re: Yahr?

[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 10:31 pm (UTC)



Arr, mateys! We be definin' our OWN gender roles on this tub!
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Re: Yahr?

[info]perlandria

2007-07-09 11:54 pm (UTC)

That just begs for cabintoy jokes I can't make at work...
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[info]eriscontrol

2007-07-09 09:51 pm (UTC)

I don't know how I feel about the rainbow background, but I like where you are going with the phoenix/flames imagery.

I also like the idea about the personal versions of the flag where each person defines their own design and it got me to thinking: national flags are often defined with very specific aspect and other ratios. I rather like heraldic descriptions because they give the essence of the flag without holding it down to mathematical precision. Defining a flag to be a vague collection of connecting imagery takes this one step further out and I think it's great.

That said, I'd fly it. I'd like to see the white phoenix and flames on the warm grey background. Or perhaps on a bright single-color background. :)
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 10:30 pm (UTC)

The rainbow part is mostly me experimenting. I wanted to see if the rainbow stripes would help it say 'PRIDE FLAG'.

There is definitely something to be said for the Official Version just being 'a phoenix, emerging from flames', perhaps with certain colors and directiosn specified. A define-it-yourself flag for a self-definition...
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[info]lesleykajira

2007-07-09 09:52 pm (UTC)

i love the first flag. It speaks powerfully on many levels.

Of course, you have the top layer of the phoenix, racing away from its old self. But too i like how the flames could represent the CONSTANT and LIFE LONG challenges and dangers being transsexual will force on someone. The bird is fleeing/rising above that as well.

i prefer the grey to the rainbow coloured variants because frankly i don't see it as being a gay/lesbian issue. i prefer the grey over the navy because grey is a both a cold, hard colour, and a soft warm one. It could suit the mood of whomever is looking at it.

Too, it's a beautiful picture in on its own.
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-09 10:07 pm (UTC)

I'm not so hot on the rainbow myself.

I tend to read the rainbow flag as being a 'queer' flag rather than specifically 'men who love men, women who love women', so I figured that playing with it might work to create a few subtle associations: with general queerness, and with the 'stripes' iconography of most of the pride flags out there. Hmm, maybe if I did alternating deep blue/pastel pink ones. Maybe not; half my intent is to just get the hell away from those 1950s American gender color codes.

And yeah. I'm done with the basic part of my transition, and I often pass perfectly - but other times I utterly fail, and it impacts my mood, and could do far worse if I wasn't living in a generally veery queer-friendly city. Sometime sI can rise above that, sometimes it drags me down and I just have to go hide for a while.
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[info]chirik

2007-07-09 10:50 pm (UTC)

I think, as the blue-pink-white flag goes, it's technically very good - it's simple (five bars, three colors, no intricate designs) and references well-known symbology. As such, it's a good flag.

I don't entirely like it, though - it would be nice to have something that doesn't reinforce our current perceptions of male/female, but don't know of an alternative. I like that you're using rebirth, because that's closer to what it means to me.

Same for the Trine - it's a decent symbol, referencing male, female and combined ... but that's really better as an combined. This isn't about combining - this is about change, to me. Haven't figured out a symbol I like better, though, and the Trine is about as well known as any of the trans symbols get. But it's really not where I'm coming from.
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[info]krinndnz

2007-07-09 11:51 pm (UTC)

What [info]postrodent said.

Also, this is on the road to Win.

Also also flag semiotics [cycle symbol] group ID [cycle symbol] non-national cultures [cycle symbol] future.
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[info]shatterstripes

2007-07-10 09:31 pm (UTC)

*snigger*

This resulted, somehow, in me trying to sing a mutated version of Kraftwerk's 'Trans-Europe Express' to Rik. I still don't know why. He tickled me because of this.
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( 46 comments — Leave a comment )
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